Shannon Graham: Space Travel, The Overview Effect and Visionary Leadership

This week I sat down with Shannon Graham, the first person I've ever known who has a ticket to go into space. He's also the Founder of a space company. Astranaut is the first company ever created to take visionaries to space to experience The Overview Effect and help them integrate their subsequent vision for humanity into action.

For the last 20 years, Shannon has been a success mentor to visionary founders running incredible companies and changing the world. He's the founder of a multi-year, peak performance coaching program he calls Legacy, where he works with founders to fully establish and live out the full potential of their business, of their leadership, and of their impact.

Shannon is the author of a book called The Expanded Leader. According the Graham, "The expanded leader is one who leads from wholeness and overflow rather than emptiness and sacrifice. The result is an organization built as a function of the leader's wholeness potential and full expression.

From the depth of these founding elements comes the creation of a culture that leads to even more richness, innovation and creativity. The resultant shift transcends the organization to have global impact, transforming competition into collaboration and helping leaders realize the fulfillment that comes from having amazing experiences in and of their own lives.

Leadership is not intended to be a restrictive box that imprisons you. It is intended to be a framework for expansion for both the leader and the organization."

If you are a leader or you aspire to be a leader in your own life or a leader in your business, Shannon shares the gives insights, tools and frameworks he uses to coach and support the luminaries that he serves.

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Show Notes:

Astranaut the space company [4:23]
The Overview Effect [6:00]
Shannon's first business [16:07]
Coaching beginnings and motivation [21:05]
Changing undesirable behaviors [24:05]
The coaching industry [33:05]
Qualities of a great coach [40:42]
What to look for in a coach [44:36]
Elements of a Rich Life [51:25]
Daily habits that fuel peak performance [59:18]
Shifting away from negative self talk [1:02:34]

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Shannon Graham: If you are genuinely present with someone and, and they feel like you are sincerely listening, they will open up to you. It's hard to have a coaching relationship and go really deep and get great results from it if the other, if the client doesn't feel like they can be open. And so really amazing listening allows people to feel seen.

[00:00:22] It allows them to feel heard, which allows them to open up where they reveal more. You can ask even better questions. And so it becomes this beautiful upward spiral of synergy. In this 

[00:00:32] Nate Hurd: week's conversation, I spoke to the first person I've ever known who has a ticket to go into space. Not only that, they have a company, a space company that takes people into space.

[00:00:49] Um, Shannon Graham is, for the last 20 years, has been a success mentor to visionary founders. Of all stripes that [00:01:00] are running incredible companies and changing the world. He's also the founder of a program he calls Legacy, where he works with founders over the course of a year, two years, three years, in some case, up to five years, to fully establish and live out the full potential of their business, of their leadership, and of their impact.

[00:01:24] And he is also the author of a book called The Expanded Leader, and I'm just gonna read a little excerpt on what that means. According to Shannon, the expanded leader is one who leads from wholeness and overflow rather than emptiness and sacrifice. The result is an organization built as a function of the leader's wholeness potential and full expression, the.

[00:01:50] From the depth of these founding elements comes the creation of a culture that leads to even more richness, innovation and creativity. The resultant [00:02:00] shift transcends the organization to have global impact, transforming competition into collaboration and helping leaders realize the fulfillment that comes from having amazing experiences in and of their own lives.

[00:02:15] Leadership is not intended to be a restrictive box that imprisoned you. It is intended to be a framework for expansion for both the leader and the organization. So if you're a leader or you aspire to be a leader, whether that's a leader in your own life, a leader in your business, um, Shannon shares in this conversation so many of the opportunities and the challenges that he has seen again and again over the last 20 years.

[00:02:40] And he gives specific insights and examples as to some of the tools he uses and ideas he uses. To coach and support the luminaries that he serves. Um, this conversation was a lot of fun for me and I really enjoyed his insight and perspective, and I think, [00:03:00] uh, it'll be helpful for you if you have any aspirations, both now or in the future to become a leader.

[00:03:07] Or even if you were a leader and you're later in life and you want to find another way to serve and mentor people at this stage, please enjoy. This conversation with Shannon Graham.

[00:03:31] Shannon Graham, thank you so much, uh, for being here, man. I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Yes, thank you for having me. You and I first met, uh, I guess it was a few months ago at dinner. And I remember when we were sitting at dinner, I looked over at you and you had a shirt, and the shirt had a rocket ship on it.

[00:03:49] And I think I said something like, you know what's, what's, what's the shirt all about? And you said to me, you looked right at me. And you said, well, I own a space company. And I was like, you mean like a space company? [00:04:00] Like taking people to space? And you said, yeah. And we had a really interesting conversation after that about what you're up to now.

[00:04:07] So maybe we could start there. Um, for anyone that's not familiar with your current work, what is astronaut? Um, where did this vision come from and what's the, what's the premise of the business? What are you up to? Yeah, 

[00:04:23] Shannon Graham: well, um, it astronaut is kind of the culmination of some of my very favorite things in the world, uh, space and space travel being one of them.

[00:04:35] Uh, but it also includes, um, my background in coaching. And so basically the reason I started the company is because, uh, one of my absolute all-time favorite quotes is from Albert Einstein. And it says, you cannot solve your problems with the same level of thinking that created them. And so whenever you have a [00:05:00] problem, the solution to that problem is somewhere beyond whatever consciousness you had that created the problem in the first place.

[00:05:10] And I think that's just human nature at, at its core really is, is growth is growing and the world is in an interesting place as of today as far as some of the challenges that we have are getting pretty big. And some of them will reach a point that if they get too big, they will not be solvable. And then things really get sticky.

[00:05:40] So we we're on a little bit of like, we have to, there's some challenges that the world has that we need to figure out, and a relatively short amount of time that we haven't been able to figure out yet that have been around for a while. So something's going to have to change. Something is going to have to happen.

[00:05:59] [00:06:00] That's different than what's been happening so far. And in my mind, the only way to do that is to, to take people's consciousness to a new level. And one of the best ways that I am aware of doing that is this combination of literally taking people to space to give them an unprecedented perspective. And so, um, there's a phenomenon that happens when a person goes to space and they see earth from space, and it's called the overview effect.

[00:06:35] And it, it works on, it, it, it happens with every single person who goes to space. 603 people approximately have been to space and they all, to some degree, report this phenomenon of looking at the earth and just having this overwhelming. Powerful moment of perspective [00:07:00] and they all come back with some renewed desire to make the world a better place as well.

[00:07:06] And so when you combine that with things like neurofeedback training and biohacking and um, leadership development, what you get is the recipe to be able to solve some pretty major challenges. And so I designed astronaut as a way to, uh, make it so that space travel is something that we can indulge in as a curiosity and ra rather than something we have to do as a necessity because we've ruined earth and we can no longer live here and we have to go somewhere else.

[00:07:42] I love 

[00:07:43] Nate Hurd: that. I love that. Yeah. I remember when. I've, I've, at some point along the way read about the overview effect, and, and I was really captured by that. And then I remember when, you know, more recently when Branson and, you know, he, he a [00:08:00] accomplished finally getting into orbit. Although I, I know they're maybe debate about, I know there's debate amongst them about where, where each one of them, what each one of them achieved.

[00:08:10] But I remember there was all this press afterwards, you know, in the media about, mm-hmm. The, the playboys just, you know, you these rich guys just, you know, using their money for adventure and, you know, all, all of that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But I re I remember at the time thinking like, well, if, if people like that who have vision for a better world and are really effective at changing the world and building businesses and making a huge impact are to experience the overview effect.

[00:08:43] I, I had that feeling. And so when you say that, that, that's, that's really interesting. And I don't, where does the overview affect. Where, where does that concept come from? Like, how far back does that go and, and was [00:09:00] there, you know, I've seen, I think we've all seen that picture, that first picture of the earth.

[00:09:04] Mm-hmm. But the, the blue dot. Yeah. Yeah. Where did, where does the concept date back to and what's the, can you talk a little bit about just the history there? Yeah. 

[00:09:14] Shannon Graham: You know, um, truthfully, I'm not entirely sure. Um, I know that that phenomenon has been happening ever since people have been going to space. Um, I don't know as far as that term specifically how long it's been around.

[00:09:30] Nate Hurd: Gotcha, gotcha. And was there, I I, I'm like vaguely recalling when. NASA first released that image. There was like a big mm-hmm. Like, like, like the reaction, the public reaction to that was pretty significant. Is that true? 

[00:09:47] Shannon Graham: It was, it was unprecedented. It was actually one of the biggest influxes of creativity the world has ever seen.

[00:09:55] Nate Hurd: Oh, wow. So you, you mean NASA itself re, re received? [00:10:00] 

[00:10:00] Shannon Graham: Yeah. NASA received songs and poems and art and, um, drawings and, and just a number of things. That's 

[00:10:10] Nate Hurd: amazing. That is amazing. All right. So are you going to space? 

[00:10:16] Shannon Graham: Yes. Yes. You have your ticket? I sure do. 

[00:10:21] Nate Hurd: Amazing. That's so amazing. Um, alright, so, so the goal of company is then to, as I understand it, is to proactively.

[00:10:31] Take people into space and provide them with this experience so that they can, uh, better imagine ways to solve some of the, some of the issues of the world. Is that the intention? 

[00:10:46] Shannon Graham: Uh, yeah. In a, in a nutshell, that's pretty much it. And the difference is before they go to space, they have an intensive neurofeedback training protocol.

[00:10:57] Uh, and after they come back from [00:11:00] space. See, the interesting thing is this, um,

[00:11:06] going to space is a pretty, like, amazing experience. Um, and coming back and having this like, um, massive desire to make the world a better place, you would think that there would be some way or someone who has captured that. Momentum or captured that kind of juice, lightning, if you will, and like channeled it to, uh, improve the probability that something good actually comes from it, rather than getting all pumped up and then just kind of fizzling out, which is what tends to happen historically.

[00:11:38] Right? And so maybe me, I was like, well, the real benefit is actually not gonna be the overview effect. It's going to be taking the inspiration and the juice that comes from that and channeling it into tangible, like a plan, a blueprint for what to do next and how to do it. Um, [00:12:00] so that's, that's where my background in coaching comes in to work with these people, uh, to do that.

[00:12:06] Nice. 

[00:12:08] Nate Hurd: Yeah. It's, is it, I mean, I think it's actually, the opposite's almost true, isn't it? Like astronauts are reported to come back and then the experience was so big. I. That it's almost like they spend the rest of their life chasing this experience, um, without, well, yeah, without what you're describing.

[00:12:24] Shannon Graham: Yeah. It's tough. It, you know, it's like when you, the, you know, going to space is, is arguably the peak of human achievement. And so once you do that, it's kind of like, well, now what? And, and that's kind of the ironic part, is like, there's actually a lot left because the world is, is, you know, in need of certain solutions and, and things like that.

[00:12:49] So yes, you may have physically gone to the peak, but as far as the peak of what you can accomplish, you've only just scratched the surface. So [00:13:00] it's really kind of shifting the landscape and the narrative of that whole conversation. Yeah. 

[00:13:05] Nate Hurd: Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. I, I, it's, it is surprising that someone hasn't captured this momentum, and it's amazing that, that you, that you're doing this.

[00:13:13] Um, so okay, well maybe we could go back a little bit then. As I was doing research for this conversation, I saw what you described, which was, this is like a really beautiful extension of a lot of what you have been up to leading up to this point. It, it seems like, um, mm-hmm. So could we go back and just talk a little bit about your background and, and maybe before we do that, I know this is part of your work and you alluded to some of the other stuff you do related to coaching.

[00:13:44] Can you just, um, touch on that and just kind of set a baseline here. What else are you up to in addition to astronaut? 

[00:13:51] Shannon Graham: Well, co coaching is really my major focus. Um, that's been my background now for. 20 years. [00:14:00] Um, astronaut is, is kind of my second big thing right now. However, I do have an AI project that has been in the works for, for a while, um, number of years at this point.

[00:14:15] And, um, so that's, that's kind of happening as well. 

[00:14:20] Nate Hurd: Got it. And your, most of your work, at least at this point, it seems like, is with, uh, like founders and visionaries, is that right? 

[00:14:31] Shannon Graham: Founders? Yep, that's right. Um, my, my work really focuses mostly on either founders who have a business that, that want to do some moonshot level endeavor, um, or people who have exited a business.

[00:14:50] That are kind of looking for, you know, the next big thing, like Elon, uh, sold PayPal and then [00:15:00] his ambition went literally to Mars. And so, uh, that's a lot of what my work has to do with either founders that wanna take what they're doing to the next level, or people have exited and wanna do something completely new and different that is, um, you know, to the moon level type thing.

[00:15:16] Okay. 

[00:15:18] Nate Hurd: Yeah, that makes sense. Um, alright, so where did this all begin? So I know I, I believe you grew up in Vermont. 

[00:15:25] Shannon Graham: That's right. Mm-hmm. 

[00:15:27] Nate Hurd: Okay. So what was your, was there anything in your childhood that you can point to or can you just describe a little bit about your upbringing, your background that originally and ultimately led you into this line of work?

[00:15:42] Shannon Graham: Yeah. Uh, it, it, it was a culmination of a number of things. Um, the, I think the biggest of, of them all being just the entrepreneurial spirit that I have. Um, you know, I started my first business when I was maybe in my early teens. [00:16:00] And, um, so I, I was pretty aware at a young age that I was gonna do my own thing.

[00:16:07] And what was that first business helping people? Uh, it, it's, uh, back in the day, I, I think it still exists, although I'm not completely sure. There was a brand called Columbia House. Yeah. And, um, it was a, it was a distribution network and they, they sold music, they sold CDs back in the day. And, um, they, they wanted you to subscribe to their, uh, you know, to get a certain amount of CDs every, every year.

[00:16:45] And the way they hooked you is they'd give you, I think, like 10 CDs for a dollar or something like that. Uh, and they knew that with the subscription model. It, it was just [00:17:00] enough money to, to be significant for them, for a, from a business perspective, but just less, just, just little enough for the people who were subscribed to not cancel the, the membership over time so they could afford to, to give you those 10 free CDs upfront because it paid for itself on the back end.

[00:17:23] I saw that as a business opportunity because if you could get anything that's valuable, relatively for free, Upfront, then you can make money. And so I brought the catalog to school and I shopped it around to my friends and I got the CDs and then I brought them to school and I said, Hey, this is the CD that you said that you wanted.

[00:17:46] Uh, you know, it's 20 bucks at the store. I'll sell it to you for 15. And sold. Sold all my CDs, came home with a box full of money, and that was the beginning. [00:18:00] Arbitrage at its finest. I love it. Yep, yep. It's good stuff. 

[00:18:05] Nate Hurd: All right. 

[00:18:05] Shannon Graham: Sorry. So you, so, um, so that was your first question. So that, that was kind of, yeah, that was the, that was just kind of the entrepreneurial beginning.

[00:18:12] Um, so, you know, I knew I wasn't gonna take like a traditional route as far as college and things like that. I also had a deep desire for helping people. For me, one of the most rewarding things is helping people grow. And I did enough research into therapy and counseling that those pathways as far as helping people were just not interesting to me.

[00:18:39] Um, or it's not that they weren't interesting, it's that they did not have the effectiveness that I, uh, wanted to have at the end of the day. Um, so, you know, that's, that's really what that comes down to. Um, so it was a combination of an entrepreneurial spirit with the desire to help [00:19:00] people, and then just over time kind of like whittling down the concept of coaching because it was, I mean, you know, even 20 years ago it was practically unheard of to have that as a career.

[00:19:12] Um, so back then in, in high school, that wasn't exactly something you could go to the guidance counselor and like have a conversation about. Mm-hmm. So it was just something they kind of evolved over time. Um, and, and you know, they say, uh, Necessity is the mother of creation. And I lived in New York City for a while, and I was actually homeless for just a, a short period of time.

[00:19:36] And in order to create money, I, I tried all these different side hustles because I was pretty, I, I, I had some cool things under my belt that could be valuable to people. Um, but the thing that I decided was the most valuable that I had to help people was simply my ability to help make their life better.

[00:19:54] And so I remember creating an ad on Craigslist for this like, [00:20:00] life coach idea. And sure enough, uh, one person took me up on it and that was, that became my first coaching client. And, uh, It was off to the races from there. 

[00:20:17] Nate Hurd: What a cool story. Wa was there anything, you know, I find that like, um, like I, I'm wired the same way and I have a very deep desire to help other people, and I always have.

[00:20:27] And, um, I can track that some of that. Back to painful experiences, challenges early on is, are there any moments in your early years that were instrumental in propelling you towards like a deep desire to, you know, dedicate your life effectively to, to helping other people? 

[00:20:49] Shannon Graham: Um, yeah, there, there was probably a handful, um, but one of the biggest ones was, um, cracking the code on [00:21:00] this idea between knowledge and behavior.

[00:21:05] And what I mean by that is you can read a hundred books and you can know how to do things. Mm-hmm. To a very high level, that doesn't mean that you're going to transition that knowledge into behavior. 80% of America is overweight. Most of them, if the conditions were severe enough, could figure out how to lose some weight without consuming any new information.

[00:21:36] Move more, eat less. Most people probably could figure that out. So why don't they behave that way? Why don't they act how they know? They know that certain things are not ideal for them, or they know certain ways to be more excellent or awesome, and yet their behavior is not congruent with that. So there's a disconnect.

[00:21:55] Yeah, and I find that in some way, shape or form, whether it's money, [00:22:00] impact, love, relationships, health, fitness, I mean you like we could name any category. Every single person to some degree is disconnected from what they know and how they behave. And some level of that obviously is okay, but it gets to a degree where it becomes not okay.

[00:22:25] And, and so I had the good fortune of, of having that realization to understand that, wait a second, I know all this stuff. I actually took a speed reading course just so that I could consume more books because I figured that would do it. And I knew all this stuff, but I looked at my results and they hadn't really changed all that much.

[00:22:44] So I was like, okay, it's not the knowledge and what is it? And I kind of put it all under the microscope and I realized, oh, it's it's behavior. And so I really went to town on shifting [00:23:00] behaviors. Uh, and, and that made a huge, huge difference. Um, so that was, that was really one of the big, kind of turning points that helped me and also gave me the, uh, ability to help other people.

[00:23:14] Nice. 

[00:23:16] Nate Hurd: Nice. And yeah, you, it's so true. And, and I mean now with, it's even trickier, right? Because we're so connected and it's so tempting to distract ourselves or give away our, our precious attention to things that aren't necessarily helpful. Um, yeah. What, what would you say if, if someone, I think probably everyone, I certainly can relate to what you just said, and I'm, I would guess that most people can in some way, shape or form, what have you found are some of the key elements there or, or things that people might consider in terms of changing behaviors that might have been that, that they might have wanted to change for a long time or, [00:24:00] um, you know, moving forward in an area that they've been stuck.

[00:24:05] Shannon Graham: Um, well, that boils down to, in my opinion, three things. Uh, you have to have a strong enough reason. To do it, you have to have a strong enough reason to do it. Um, and, and, and what I, in, in a positive way, there has to be a positive enough outcome that you desire to pull you towards it, um, because inspiration or motivation come from the inside out, and willpower alone will never get the job done.

[00:24:41] That's the exact same reason that gym memberships January 1st, go through the roof and then 60 to 90 days later they go back to where they were. Um, everybody, you know, will willpowers it for 60 to 90 days. They don't see crazy significant results and then they quit. Um, well, because the [00:25:00] reason for them to start wasn't strong enough.

[00:25:02] Mo why do most people wanna start? Well, you know, they think that it's a good idea. They think that they should, those are not good reasons. Mm-hmm. Um, they wanna hurry up and like get their body in a good shape because they're going on that vacation to, you know, The Bahamas or whatever. That's, that's probably not even gonna do.

[00:25:24] It has to be something really strong. It has to be a desire that is like so powerful that it literally pulls you towards it. That's part one. Part two is you have to be disgusted. There has to be a level of discussed, um, and, and discussed you. That word is interchangeable. With a standard. You have to have a new standard for yourself.

[00:25:49] What is my standard for health? What is my standard for finances? Some people, whether it's conscious or unconscious, well, everyone has a standard, uh, for money, for example. However [00:26:00] much money you make on a monthly basis is where your financial thermostat is set. That is the standard that you have decided is good for you.

[00:26:10] Well, how do you change that? Well, you raise the standard. You make it so that what has been is no longer acceptable. No longer, you will no longer tolerate. A certain level. And so shifting that standard and becoming disgusted with anything less than that, uh, is powerful because human beings are motivated by positivity, but we're also motivated to avoid pain.

[00:26:40] And if certain behavior can become linked to pain, I don't want to behave that way because behaving that way feels painful to who I am, then you can create some real great momentum. Now, the third piece of the puzzle is your identity, because at the end of the day, your identity [00:27:00] dictates your behavior.

[00:27:01] Yeah. If someone identifies, for example, as a good Christian, we could have a whole conversation about what that means. Um, but just from a very basic level, if they get to a crossroads where they could do good or they can do bad to simplify it, they would choose good because their identity tells them, well, if I'm a good Christian, that I should do good.

[00:27:24] So their behavior is reinforced by their identity. Um, um, that's why quitting cold Turkey is one of the most effective ways to quit smoking, because in that moment, what people do is, it's not even that they decide that there's a strong enough reason to, to not do it. Um, it's, they simply cha they decide that they are someone different.

[00:27:46] They go from like, I am a smoker who's trying to quit. If you are a, if you identify, if your identity is, I am a smoker and I'm trying to quit, you're a smoker. You, you have, you have labeled yourself as a [00:28:00] smoker. But the people who quit cold Turkey say, I'm no longer a smoker. It's not, I, I no longer smoke, that's the action, but I am, my person is no longer that person.

[00:28:13] Yeah. Big, big, big difference. And so those, those are really the three big ones. I 

[00:28:20] Nate Hurd: love that. Um, and I, I'd love to just follow up on the first part because it's interesting to hear you say that the, the why, the reason, um, it's better to have that oriented in a positive way. Um, I'm, I'm thinking of situations like in my own life where I wait until something is like so painful that I'm almost reacting to that pain and it's reactionary.

[00:28:46] Yeah. Um mm-hmm. Which can, which can work for sure to change, but it's definitely not what you described, which is being pulled. 

[00:28:55] Shannon Graham: Yeah, it's also, it's also not intentional. [00:29:00] Um, it's a, it's a, it's a, I know myself well enough to know that I perform best under extreme conditions. I'm gonna wait and wait and wait and wait until it's critical.

[00:29:12] Then I'm gonna rise to the occasion. Um, yes, technically that works, but as a, as a. As a long-term strategy or as a strategy to help you improve or to grow, uh, it, it's typically not ideal. I 

[00:29:31] Nate Hurd: love that. So, all right, so, so once you had your, once you had your first client, like what, what are some of the inflection points that you have?

[00:29:41] That you have gone through over time that have allowed you to develop the, the way that you currently look at, at your work. So were there any particular, um, clients or experiences in your early business as, as a coach that really informed the trajectory in a meaningful way? [00:30:00] 

[00:30:00] Shannon Graham: Yeah, I, I think, you know, having a coaching business, you, you can really go a lot of different directions.

[00:30:07] And I mean that in a, in a couple different ways. You can work with all kinds of different people. You know, the different types of niches within a coaching practice is practically infinite. Um, so where do you really land in there? And every coach has a different place where they land with that. Um, and, and that really boils down to like, who do you enjoy working with the most?

[00:30:33] Who can you provide the most value to? If you can answer those two questions, then, then you're at least on the right path. Um, but then there's the concept of like, well, how do I help them? What, what is the, the medium or the vehicle that I use these days? There's all kinds of stuff. There's products and there's course online courses, there's group programs, there's masterminds, [00:31:00] there's all kinds of different things.

[00:31:02] Um, I have always looked at the end result as the best measuring stick of a thing. So if the goal is weight loss, for example, I'll put all of those under the microscope and look at which one facilitates that end result with the highest success rate. And it's one-on-one coaching every single time.

[00:31:31] There's a reason why the best of the best of the best hire coaches and work with them intimately, because they know that that's how they're gonna get the best results. You're not gonna see a, a high level tennis player like Roger Federer join a group coaching program, or, you know, like do some type of online course of how to be a better tennis player, right?

[00:31:53] There's a time and place for those things. For certain types of people, they, they have their benefits for [00:32:00] sure, but as far as like the ultimate end user success rate one-on-one is, is always going to win. And so if my goal is to make the world a better place as a function of working with visionaries, then obviously I want to protect and honor that probability.

[00:32:23] And do what I can to make sure that I keep that probability as close to a hundred percent as possible. So over the years, getting a better sense for like, okay, I work with business owners well, yeah, that's true, but there's a certain flavor of business owner that I really do best with. Oh, I see. It's not just, it's not just business owners, it's visionaries.

[00:32:48] Okay, cool. There's a bunch of different ways that I could work with them. Oh. Working with them very intimately, over a prolonged amount of time. Ah, so over the years, it's just been this refining process [00:33:00] of, um, learning who I serve the best and, and what is the best way to do that. 

[00:33:05] Nate Hurd: That makes sense. And these days, you know, what, what's your perspective on the industry like, I think to your point, there are a lot of coaches now, or a lot of people that say they're coaches or even are certified as coaches, but, um, yeah, but it's, it's a wide array, so if you know it, it certainly makes sense.

[00:33:24] Like I, I'm curious about two things. One, what's your perspective on the current state of the coaching industry and its importance as we go forward and try to solve some of the big problems that you talked about earlier? And two, you know, why, why don't more people, why, what prevents people from having a coach?

[00:33:45] Knowing that it, you know, it, it could be really valuable as you've outlined, um, which certainly is true. Yeah. It's almost laughable to think about Federer doing anything but having a coach. But of course, for sure, you know, the, the, their initial response might be, well, yeah, of course, but he is [00:34:00] rich and people have access to stuff when they're rich and, you know, and yeah.

[00:34:05] So anyway. Yeah. What, what are your thoughts? 

[00:34:08] Shannon Graham: Well, um, the coaching industry is, um, in an interesting place. It has a little bit of a black eye these days. Um, and that's for a couple reasons. It is because, um, anybody can, can just raise their hand and say they're a coach and, and kind of back in the day, as we used to say, just hang a tile and, and.

[00:34:30] That's, that's your career now. Um, and that's, that's a, that's a little bit of a double-edged sword because I think that that's actually great because that's what allowed me to get into the game and get going. So I certainly benefited from that. Um, but it also means people that have really zero experience can get started.

[00:34:50] And especially if someone's entrusting you with their, their life, their success, their results, you know, that's, That's pretty sacred. And I, [00:35:00] and I feel like that's something that really should be honored with, uh, a person that you can enter into that agreement with that's going to be able to hold that for you, uh, or with you.

[00:35:12] And so the, that's a little bit of the challenge. The other side is, um, the, the coaching industry has really been pretty heavily influenced by the internet marketing world. And the challenge with that is, um, internet marketers are internet marketers and coaches are coaches. And yes, there is some overlap and some benefit from some cross-pollinization.

[00:35:35] Uh, but what I find is that it's gone a little too heavy on the internet marketing side. Where the emphasis is on helping as many people as possible. Well, the challenge with that, that'd be like, that'd be like saying Federer, you know, why, why don't you play twice as many games a year than you do? Because you just can't, it, that'd be like saying to, um, Scorsese, like, well, why don't you [00:36:00] just make twice as many films?

[00:36:01] So why don't, why don't we kind of orient things in a way where you can leverage it and automate it and, and do even more? A guy like Scorsese or Federer would laugh at something like that. That's, that's just not how they do things. Um, and, and so the dangerous, uh, many, many, many coaches want to help people as they should.

[00:36:23] The idea of helping more people is attractive and being able to scale and make more money, obviously is attractive. What you tend to lose is the end result or the success rate, which tends to go down. Um, you know, internet marketing mostly comes from the background of, um, of selling information. Well, if you're selling a bunch of information, there's really not a lot of connection to the end user of whether they use that information, whether they get any type of result.

[00:36:57] It's really just about how much, you know, let's find cool [00:37:00] ways to sell as much information to as many people as we can. Um, so those same strategies, you know, exist in the coaching world. And, and again, they are successful to a degree and they can be very, very helpful. And, and when taken too far, they can become detrimental, just like anything.

[00:37:20] And so that's really what I see, uh, as far as where the industry is at. Um, but it's not all bad. There's a lot of good as well. There's a lot of amazing coaches out there that are doing amazing things. Um, Which brings us to the next part of the question, which is what does that look like in the future? Uh, the future is exciting because there is this big blow that's gonna be dealt to the workforce, uh, as a function of automation and ai.

[00:37:53] Uh, the predictions are something to the effect of 50 to 52% of the workforce is gonna get wiped out. [00:38:00] And, uh, a lot of people think that's a bad thing. I don't think that's a bad thing. I actually think it's a good thing. And the reason I think it's good is because 80% of the global workforce currently is unhappy with their job.

[00:38:15] And so they probably are just at that job for a paycheck anyway, just to kind of like keep the bills paid. So they're. Not really there, cuz they wanna be, they're not engaged, they're not passionate. Um, and AI is gonna come along and wipe that job out, which is going to force them for the first time to genuinely look at like, what do I really want to do?

[00:38:41] And the, the day and age that we live in allows for people to be the most self-expressed and make money doing that than ever. More people are more self-expressed and making money from that self-expression than ever before. Whether that's a YouTube channel [00:39:00] or a podcast or, I mean, you name it, there's just a bunch of things.

[00:39:06] And so. That is, is really beautiful because it gives people the opportunity to ask that question. And, uh, because there will be more people on the internet at that time than ever before, what that means is the option for monetization or the opportunity for monetization will be higher than ever as well.

[00:39:31] And so with some coaching, people can clarify, Hey, what is my passion? What am I good at? What, what type of strategies should I use to monetize this idea? And it, the, the boom is going to be massive, not just for coaches, but for the world. Uh, the, the prediction is that the middle class will be larger than the poverty class for the first time in, in human history.

[00:39:57] Um, and [00:40:00] it, it will be what I'm calling the age of abundance. Uh, so it's very exciting and, and I see the coaching industry playing a really big role in that. Hmm. 

[00:40:10] Nate Hurd: I love that. I actually spoke with, uh, a guy named Marion Tupe on the podcast not long ago who wrote a book called Super Abundance, which is oriented a very similar picture.

[00:40:20] So I really, I really appreciate you saying that. Um, so I, I wanna ask you more about your own personal, uh, approach to life and also a bit more about the, the coaching work that you do. But I'd love to, I'd love to just know what, in your pers from your perspective, what makes a great coach? 

[00:40:42] Shannon Graham: Uh, well there's a number of things.

[00:40:44] Um, two of the top things that I talk about all the time that come to mind are asking really good questions. The best coaches ask the best questions, and [00:41:00] that's, that is a combination of an art and a science. You really have to have some mastery to be able to do that. But that leads us to the second part, the, the f.

[00:41:08] It's got a little bit of a chicken, chicken and the egg equation. Um, but you have listening.

[00:41:20] Truly masterful listening is what is responsible for truly excellent questions. And so if you can listen, if you can be really genuinely present with somebody and listen to them and listen between the words, listen between what they're saying and to truly, genuinely hear them, that does a couple things.

[00:41:45] Number one, as the coach, it helps you better understand what's my next question. The better you can listen, the better you can ask questions. The second part of that is that if you [00:42:00] are genuinely present with someone and, and they feel like you are sincerely listening, they will open up to you. It's hard to have a coaching relationship and go really deep and get great results from it if the other, if the client doesn't feel like they can be open.

[00:42:16] And so really amazing listening allows people to feel seen. It allows them to feel heard, which allows them to open up where they reveal more. You can ask even better questions, and so it becomes this beautiful upward spiral of synergy. So listening and asking questions are, uh, really excellent.

[00:42:37] Strategies. Um, and I would also say that not being afraid to be confrontational with someone, um, because you have to remember they're hiring you to get a result. They're not hiring you to be their friend. They're not hiring you to be their like phone talk buddy. Um, they're hiring you to get results, [00:43:00] which in a way gives you permission to, at times not be their friend or to be their friend in a tough love type of way.

[00:43:08] And so in moments where they need to be confronted, where their friends, their family, their colleagues, their coworkers are likely not gonna confront them in that way. You can be the one to stand up for them and say, Hey, you're fucking up. Hey, you're not paying attention. Hey, you, you know, you didn't do what you said you were gonna do.

[00:43:27] Or whatever the case may be. 

[00:43:29] Nate Hurd: Yeah. That's, that, that's so important, man. I, I've definitely. I've definitely, uh, noticed listening more and more and more as I've gotten older. You know, you're, you can be in conversations and it's so, it gets so clear when someone, even if it's not with a coach, but if it's so clear when someone's really not paying attention, and as time's gone along.

[00:43:50] Oh, for sure. I don't know if it's that my, my, my inclination towards deeper conversation has just grown and grown and grown. You know, it used to be like cocktail [00:44:00] parties and whatever. Just 

[00:44:00] Shannon Graham: surface level Yeah. Stuff. How's the weather? 

[00:44:03] Nate Hurd: Um, yeah. How's the weather? But man, I, I really noticed that a lot now, and you can tell it's, yeah.

[00:44:08] I mean, it makes such a big difference. So let's just flip it real quickly. If, if I'm, if I'm someone looking for a coach or thinking about a transition mm-hmm. Or imagining, you know, vetting a coach, I can look for someone If I'm engaged with them, I can look for someone who seems like they're really listening.

[00:44:25] And hearing everything. Yeah. And is asking me questions that are really thought provoking or inspiring. Is there anything else? Mm-hmm. I would, I would wanna look for, 

[00:44:36] Shannon Graham: um, those, those are the big ones. Um, obviously you, you wanna feel like the person has your back. Um, there's, there's one, there's a difference between transactions and transformation.

[00:44:52] Um, and so that, that genuine feeling of, of like, wow, this, I, I sense that this person really has my back. [00:45:00] Uh, you know, that's, that's good as well. That will likely come as a fun. If they deeply care, then they're gonna deeply listen and they're gonna have your back. So all of that is really gonna be kinda mixed in.

[00:45:10] Yeah, 

[00:45:10] Nate Hurd: for sure. And are there any, like red flags, if I'm, if I'm in a, in an intro call with a coach and or I'm reading, you know, their, their, their sales message, are there any like red flags that you would. Put out there that tend not, tend not to be great signs. Um, 

[00:45:29] Shannon Graham: I don't, I don't know about reading a sales message just because that's kind of a, a one way conversation, uh, but certainly on a phone call with them, you know, just listening for some, the opposite of some of those factors.

[00:45:42] Uh, are they, are they listening? Do I get the sense that they're really here, present with me? Do I get the sense that they care? Um, are they asking just kind of surface level questions? I'll never forget, I watched, uh, uh, I, I was actually live in a, in a [00:46:00] studio with John Travolta in a, on a podcast. And I'm not gonna mention the name of the podcast just to allow the guy to save face because he does have a great show overall.

[00:46:11] But he was interviewing John Travolta and he was just asking these very canned questions. And a, as you can imagine, John Travolta, he's got a wealth of experience. And a wealth of knowledge and I mean, he's just, he's, he's iconic. He's one of the greats. And it was just kind of one canned question after the other that kind of elicited a very, kind of one dimensional response.

[00:46:37] And it was just, and then another one like that, and then, and then, and you could see like, uh, 30% of the way into the conversation, John Travolta is like, he's, he's like getting frustrated, you know? And he finally just kind of calls the guy out and he's like, look, man, like we gotta have like a real conversation here.

[00:46:55] Otherwise it's just not gonna work. Um, so yeah, [00:47:00] that's, that's always important is to be able to really be present and to ask good questions so that the person can really stimulate your creativity. Or even like, you know, again, being, being confrontational, asking you hard questions. Why are you where you are today?

[00:47:20] Well, what is the reason for that and what is the reason for that and why do you think that's true? And just, and, and really like kind of putting the screws to you a little bit so that you don't wiggle out of your own non excellence so that you can really face yourself and see what's going on. And, and genuinely take account for the cost of that because it's not something we typically pay attention to or sober up to willingly, um, or with our friends or family, colleagues, whatever.

[00:47:49] So to be willing to push the button with people and to ask them the questions that intentionally make them uncomfortable, that's actually a sign of a good coach, because that's a sign that they care. I'm not [00:48:00] gonna willingly let you subscribe to your own bullshit anymore. I'm gonna, I'm gonna push where it hurts, so that you're aware of, of what's really happening so that we can create a solution together to move you out of it.

[00:48:13] Nate Hurd: Yeah, that's, that, that makes total sense. Um, and actually elements of that, you know, maybe not quite the, the last part, although I couldn't agree more. That's a really important, like, it's kind of like when you have, like, if, if you've ever had a moment where you're at a crossroads and you like, don't, you know, you don't know where to turn and you like go to a really good friend and they just tell you how it is, they like give you the harsh truth.

[00:48:36] Yeah. It's kind of a little bit of that. Yeah. And very much so. And I would say that, you know, we're, what we're talking about is really intensive work and I've done a lot of that and I'm really, you know, and I've on both sides, you know, as the coach and the coachee and I know you. Mm-hmm. You obviously have had many years of experience there.

[00:48:55] And I would just also add, and I, I curious if you agree with this, but [00:49:00] like these interactions, we have interactions in our lives all the time, even if we're not coaches. What you just described is a really beautiful way to interact with people in life. You know, try to listen more deeply, try to ask really unique and thought provoking questions.

[00:49:15] You know? Um, yeah. Try to offer people truth wherever it's appropriate, you know? 

[00:49:23] Shannon Graham: For sure, for sure. The, those are qualities that, in, in my world, it's necessary because, for two reasons, well, for three reasons. Uh, in my world, it's necessary because I'm so focused on results that I have to be present. I have to ask good questions, I have to be confrontational sometimes, because that's how we get to.

[00:49:42] The finish line. Also, because my work is so intimate and I'm so obsessed with making the world a better place, that my coaching relationships are some of the most important relationships of my life. It's not like I have my career over here, and then I have [00:50:00] my real life over here, and that's where I get to be intimate and I get to be focused.

[00:50:03] And then in my career, it's just kinda going through the motions. No, my coaching career is my life to, to a pretty large degree. Not entirely, uh, but it's certainly a big part of it. And so who I am and how I show up to that, uh, should be congruent with how I show up to everything else. And so, yeah. You're totally right.

[00:50:28] Hmm. 

[00:50:30] Nate Hurd: All right. So as a person who has been in the, in, in this kind of work for a long time, do you personally have coaches? Have you always used 

[00:50:40] Shannon Graham: coaches yourself? Oh yeah, big time. Because as good as I am, I can't outrun my own blind spots. Mm-hmm. And I know that there's always gonna be upper limits for me.

[00:50:52] There's always gonna be certain things that I can't see. Uh, so I'm constantly engaging new coaches. 

[00:50:59] Nate Hurd: So this feeds [00:51:00] into what I'd love to, um, just talk about for a few minutes if you're open to it, but what's your personal approach to life? You know, the, the, the title of this podcast is The Rich Life Lab, and I'm always, I've been really curious for a long time about what does it mean to live a truly rich life in all areas.

[00:51:16] Yeah. Um, and I'm just curious, what are the cornerstones for you of a, of a rich and fulfilling life? 

[00:51:25] Shannon Graham: I think that's a great question. Um, I think it comes down to a couple of things. I, I'm gonna say four things. If I had more time to think about it, I, I maybe would give you a different answer, but I think this is pretty spot on.

[00:51:41] Uh, fulfillment is easily one of the most important because all you have to do is look at people who have everything other than fulfillment and, and look at what their life looks like. Um, [00:52:00] so the art of fulfillment is paramount, and that's challenging because fulfillment is different from one person to an X for, for one person.

[00:52:12] You know, going to Alaska and climbing some snowy mountaintop would be fulfilling. And to another person that would be like the last thing that they would ever wanna do, like sitting on their porch and drinking some green tea is very fulfilling for them. So, Fulfillment is not a, is not a one size fits all type of thing.

[00:52:34] That's why it's so hard. It's a moving target. Everyone wants to be fulfilled, but everyone's looking to other people to try to kind of copy like, oh, well, they're really fulfilled, I guess. You know, they, they do meditation. I guess I should do meditation. That's not necessarily true. Well, I mean, everyone should do meditation just because it's good.

[00:52:50] But, um, what it means is you, as an individual, you have to get really honest about yourself [00:53:00] and who you are and what makes you fulfilled. And that's hard. That, that, that inevitably means you have to ask some hard questions. Um, you have to be creative and you have to, you have to really be able to take a look at yourself and, and that's not an easy thing to do.

[00:53:17] Uh, so fulfillment is one of the really big ones. Um, and the next one I would say is purpose. Purpose and fulfillment are not necessarily the same. You can be fulfilled. But not necessarily have purpose. They can be related. They can interact with each other and they can feed off of each other. They are synergistic, but they're not, they're not mutual.

[00:53:41] They, they're mutually exclusive. Um, purpose is more like, what, why are you here? What is, what is your purpose on the planet? What are you gonna do with the time that you've been given? What do you want to create [00:54:00] while you're here? Some people like to create art, I would say to a degree where all artists, but some people like, like the arts, meaning music or dance or film.

[00:54:16] Does that necessarily change the world in a, in a big kind of dent universe kind of way? I don't know. It's hard to say. Where would the world be without the Beatles music? Yeah. Where would the world be without, um, you know, movies like Gun With the Wind? Where would the world be without some of the visual art we've had from Rembrandt and Van Gogh and Picasso?

[00:54:44] Where, where would the world be? Probably not in a better place. Totally, 

[00:54:50] Nate Hurd: man. And how much inspiration to do other amazing things has come from someone listening to classical, like a certain classical music and they have a [00:55:00] spark, you know? 

[00:55:01] Shannon Graham: Oh yeah, for sure. Um, so, but yeah, that the domino effect is very real.

[00:55:08] Um, so yeah, that, that, what is your purpose? What, what are you here to do? Uh, how, how do you wanna make the world a better place? And I, I think what's interesting about that is, again, everyone has a different flavor of that. And I think sometimes it's easy to judge ourselves. Like, oh, well, Shannon Graham, man, he has this whole blueprint for civilization design and, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:55:32] It takes people to space. I just wanna make cool art on a canvas. Well, what if that's equally as valuable? Because that art gives life color. It, it, it brings a smile to somebody's face. Maybe it helps somebody get perspective on who they are, who knows? Um, but I would not diminish it in, in any way. And so I think it's [00:56:00] powerful for people to be able to own whatever it is that they are really excited about and, and to follow it.

[00:56:09] Um, so fulfillment and purpose really are the big ones. And then the third one, in my opinion, based on the world we live in today, is finance. You have to be able to finance the world that you live in. And that's just a very real part of it, because the world that we currently live in requires money to do things.

[00:56:30] So that means that either you have to figure out how to make money with what you're doing. Or you have to figure out how to create it in a way where other people can help fund it. Um, but, but the funding is a necessary element because it, it makes the, the wheels go around and, uh, it, it allows you to do creative things.

[00:56:55] If you're an artist and you have creative visions and you wanna get that [00:57:00] out into the world, you have to be able to have the funds to be able to get those canvas and paint and things like that and put those, you know, uh, out into the world. Um, if you're Elon, you gotta have the money to build rockets. So, uh, whether it's a small scale or a big scale, funding is, is important.

[00:57:21] It matters. Um, so taking your fulfillment, taking, taking your purpose, and somehow finding a way to create funds with that is, is powerful. 

[00:57:33] Nate Hurd: Yeah. Yeah. I, I think that's, that, that sounds and feels really right. And, you know, it's interesting because I, I forget where I saw this, but it, you know, it's like if you can impact, sometimes we think, um, as you were, as you're pointing out with there, we look at Elon Musk or other people like him and people like you who are [00:58:00] creating incredible, audacious, amazing things.

[00:58:03] And it feels, uh, you know, it feels so much grander than perhaps what's, what's in front of us or what we, what's in our heart. But, you know, I love thinking about the idea that like, If you go backwards in time, you know, how many people did it take to make your life possible? So like you have your parents and then you have your grandparents, and then your great-grandparents and your great-great grandparents, and you go back and back and it's like a couple hundred years.

[00:58:30] I forget I read this somewhere, but it's like, you know, yeah. It's, it's a, it's an amazing amount of people that it took and so, but then the other, the other, it works the other way too, right? If the, the people that we impact in our lives, I, you know, in turn can impact other people and impact other people, and that can happen just through friendships or through interactions and business or all, all sorts of ways, you know?

[00:58:54] Shannon Graham: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's totally true. 

[00:58:57] Nate Hurd: Um, alright, so on a [00:59:00] practical level, so fulfillment purpose mm-hmm. Finance. On a practical level, what do you, what are, what are the things that you do every day to kind of optimize your, your own energy, your own potential, so that you can operate at the highest level?

[00:59:18] Shannon Graham: Uh, well, a lot of it comes down to, honestly, a lot of it comes down to diet. Making sure that my diet is, is really on par. Um, I really truly think of food as fuel. And if you think of food as fuel, then you, you really start to change how you think about eating and, and what you put in your body. Um, exercise.

[00:59:43] Interestingly enough, the more you use your energy, the more of it that you have, um, which is counterintuitive. And so those are, those are two really big ones. Uh, we could do a whole show on peak performance and biohacking and, and all of that stuff. Uh, but [01:00:00] diet and exercise really are some of the most easily overlooked and, and easily two of the most important.

[01:00:08] Yeah. 

[01:00:09] Nate Hurd: All right, so that brings me to, maybe we could, maybe this is a way we could bring it, bring it to a close here. What are. Um, some of the things that you look for that, or that you have found are opportunities, like pretty large opportunities or challenges that people face. Like, I would imagine that if you're, you know, working with someone closely and they're not getting sleep or they're, you know, I mean it could be the, these, these basic things that could be preventing them from unlocking potential.

[01:00:41] But, but then other than that, are there common challenges or common, you know, op or opportunities, depending on how you frame it, that you see, uh, pretty consistently? 

[01:00:54] Shannon Graham: Uh, yeah. I, I think that mostly the biggest one that I've encountered from my [01:01:00] experience is mindset. Um, at the end of the day, your mindset is running the show and most people have a pretty large degree of negative chatter.

[01:01:13] In their mindset throughout the day, whether it's just about them as a person or about what's possible for them or about what they can have or who they can be, or what they can give, what they can do. Uh, to, to squash the negative chatter, to the best of of your ability is easily one of the best things a person can do for themselves to set themself up.

[01:01:39] Um, we all have negative chatter to some degree. Some people, obviously more than others, uh, but no matter how much of it you have, if you can begin to replace that with something that's more productive and more constructive, uh, then you [01:02:00] really do yourself a big 

[01:02:01] Nate Hurd: favor. And if someone's listening to this and they identify with that, Um, what could they do or what should they do?

[01:02:11] Are there, are there tools or resources that you might suggest? I mean, we could, we could go for probably another hour on just this one topic, but Yeah. Where, where would you point them to, to get started or, 

[01:02:21] Shannon Graham: well, the, the simple exercise that I could give them without having to assign too much homework, um, would simply be to shift the nature of how you ask questions.

[01:02:34] What I mean by that is most people ask negative questions to themselves. Why does this always happen to me? Why does this always happen? Why don't things always work out? What if it doesn't work out? What if I fail? What if I lose all my money? What if, what if, what if? What if? Negative. That creates what's called negative [01:03:00] expectancy.

[01:03:00] What if, well, what if I lose all my money? And then they go off onto this imaginary path where they lose all their money and then things get really bad, and then things get really bad. Well, what if I'm a failure? Well, then they think about what if they fail? And then what if things get really bad and then they get really bad and then they get really bad.

[01:03:14] It's like this immediate instant apocalypse scenario. The mind is really good at going there. Mm-hmm. But what if we flip the connotation of, of the nature of the question asking, what if it works? What if I can do it? What if they say yes,

[01:03:38] starts to change things? That begins to create what's called possibility thinking or positive expectancy. Oh, what if it does work? Could it work? What if they said yes and then, and then you imagine them saying yes. And then you imagine the deal going through, and then you imagine getting the funding. And then you [01:04:00] imagine launching the rocket and then you imagine going to Mars, that's gonna inspire you, that's gonna move you forward.

[01:04:06] What if it doesn't work? What if they say no? What if it all falls apart? That's not gonna encourage you to take any action. That's not gonna encourage you to take any risk. That's not gonna encourage you to do much of anything. So to ask positive questions is one of the easiest yet profound ways to do it.

[01:04:24] Nate Hurd: Hmm. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. And it's, you know, sometimes we don't even notice the questions we're asking. So like, you know, I've found that like, if I'm feeling in a, in a funk, if I like, just start writing down the thoughts that are coming, you know, anything that I notice that I'm thinking or questions I'm asking, and just document them and then stare at them.

[01:04:44] Mm-hmm. And then I love that idea, just flipping 'em around to Yeah. The opposite. Yeah. 

[01:04:51] Shannon Graham: Um, 

[01:04:53] Nate Hurd: cool. Well, Shannon, this has been, uh, this has been awesome. I really appreciate it, man. Is there any, any final words, any final, [01:05:00] uh, thoughts you would share with the audience before we close? 

[01:05:04] Shannon Graham: Uh, you know, really I would just say if you want a rich life, you have to A, determine what that means for you.

[01:05:13] And B, be committed to creating it. 

[01:05:18] Nate Hurd: Yep. Very, very worthy projects indeed. Um, well, where can, where can, uh, people find out more about you? Is there anywhere that they can follow you or, 

[01:05:28] Shannon Graham: uh, yeah, Instagram is, is a good place. Awesome. 

[01:05:32] Nate Hurd: Awesome. Um, yeah. Well, thanks so much, man. It's been a real pleasure and I wish you the very best in all your endeavors.

[01:05:40] And I'll be enthusiastically watching for you to begin watching people into space. When's your, uh, when's your ticket for, what's the date? 

[01:05:48] Shannon Graham: Uh, uh, it's near the end of next year. Oh my gosh. 

[01:05:54] Nate Hurd: Oh my gosh. Amazing. Amazing. Yeah. All right. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it, brother. Okay, 

[01:05:59] Shannon Graham: [01:06:00] my friend. Thank you.

[01:06:01] Nate Hurd: Thanks for checking out this video. Make sure you hit subscribe. I'm Nathan Herd, also known as the Rich Life Guy. You can follow me at The Rich Life Guy. Also, check out Rich Life Lab, which is the podcast available everywhere. And leave a comment and let me know if this video landed for you or what else you'd like to hear from me in the future.

[01:06:20] Thank you so much.